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  • in reply to: Who Uses a subwoofer(s)? #1632
    drbond
    Participant

      @chungjh
      Presently, I’m using Ypsilon Hyperion monoblock amplifiers. They are the best that I have heard, but they should be, given the price. My second favorite was the Lamm M2.2 monoblock amplifiers. Both of these are about 220W hybrid amplifiers. Personally, I think that the Sound Labs need at least 200W; I think the maximum power that’s recommended is around 600W, so I wouldn’t go above that.

      in reply to: Who Uses a subwoofer(s)? #1624
      drbond
      Participant

        @chungjh
        While not exactly what you inquired about, here is my experience with subwoofers and EQ:

        I was told that getting the subwoofers would be the easiest part, but that integrating them with the ESL’s with proper high-pass filters (HPF) and low-pass filters (LPF) would be more challenging. There were all sorts of recommendations about HPF’s, including passive vs active vs analog vs digital. The LPF was easier, as it’s integrated into the subwoofer itself.

        It seemed that integrating a HPF would be most challenging, and all methodologies would change the sound quality (SQ), and since my system was very transparent, detailed, and musical, I didn’t want to interfere with the superb SQ, whether that be integrating a capacitor into the interconnect feeding my amplifiers, or changing a pre-amplifier to some sort of DEQ device with unlimited fiddling with orders of filters, etc.

        Ultimately, I decided not to even bother with using a HPF, and, as you can determine from my description below, I am very content with the SQ and musical presentation without any HPF.

        Before the purchase of my subwoofers, I was told that the subwoofers and electrostatic speakers are poor matches, and I was prepared to follow through with complex HPF, etc, if necessary, but either I’m just lucky with my placement, and set up, or the Martin Logan Balanced Force subwoofers just match perfectly with my Sound Lab electrostatic speakers, with simply placing the subs in a standard stereo position. Consequently, I’m reluctant to start with endless fiddling when it’s perfect now, with only a slight stagger to the subs. (I did note that if the subs were placed symmetrically, that there was a band of low frequency sound that got cancelled out between the two subs.)

        After a couple of months of listening, I got the Martin Logan Perfect Bass Kit (PBK), which is room EQ software that can either be automated or manually set up using a microphone measuring from 5 different points in the room.

        Firstly, l have really been appreciating the marked improvement in texture that the subwoofers give to all musical instruments with just the standard operation using the LPF set at 55 Hz in conjunction with my Sound Lab electrostatic speakers. Regardless, I followed through with proper room EQ set up using the PBK, and at first I was rather pleased: the bass sound did sound more refined, slightly more precise, and not quite as thick at the lowest register.

        Without any EQ, my room has an increased signal from 20-40 Hz, and then dramatically drops between 40-50Hz, before slightly rising back up to ideal flat signal after 60 Hz or so. After the PBK, the Room EQ flattened out the signal rather markedly, to make it appear almost ideal.

        When I first listen with the Room EQ, as I mentioned, the bass sounds more refined, and perhaps slightly more precise, but it does seem to detract from some of that more visceral component of the lower frequencies. If I only listen for an hour or less, then I am content with the Room EQ; however, I noticed that if I have a longer listening session for a few hours or more, that I get rather significant ear (listening) fatigue, which has never before been a problem with my system. So I turn the Room EQ off, and listen to the standard subwoofers without any EQ, and the fatigue immediately disappears…so I’ve reverted to listening to the subwoofers without any EQ, and I think that it sounds superior, although it measures worse!

        So, that somewhat supports my opinion that audio measurements are an idealized representation of what some people think music should sound like but they are mostly wrong…

        in reply to: Sound Lab and CODA? #1542
        drbond
        Participant

          There are a couple of other threads about amplifiers and SL. I created one about 1-2 years ago. Lamm M2.2 is very good, and possibly one of the best below nosebleed prices, if you consider 10-12k below nosebleed levels. (Disclaimer: I have a pair of Lamm M2.2 listed for sale, which I used before I upgraded to nosebleed levels with an Ypsilon Hyperion, both of which are hybrid amplifiers, with a bias to class A.)

          in reply to: Who Uses a subwoofer(s)? #1530
          drbond
          Participant

            FWIW, I did some adjustments after a few hours of listening: I currently think that the HPF set at 65 Hz works best. (I chose 65 Hz because that is the lowest note the cello plays.) I presently think that the subwoofers do interfere with solo piano music, and so will probably opt to turn the subwoofers off for solo instrumental music, and possibly duets also.
            The subwoofers really seem add the most to any complex, orchestral music, as everything seems to become much clearer, more crisp, detailed, and dynamic. In fact, overall SQ must have something to do with more than just the theoretical frequency of instruments, as I found that while integrating the subwoofers, all instruments, including the human voice, became much clearer, and I was hearing instruments that I hadn’t heard before, which were in the upper frequency ranges.

            in reply to: Who Uses a subwoofer(s)? #1526
            drbond
            Participant

              @chungjh
              While he no doubt plays a role in designing great speakers, Dr West is not right about everything. I found that much of his knowledge is based on technology from the 1980’s, and maybe early 1990’s. Much has changed since the 1980’s in the audio world.

              in reply to: Who Uses a subwoofer(s)? #1524
              drbond
              Participant

                Well, I went the “easy” route for the subwoofers that I just acquired, and with my minimal work, I must say that I am impressed. I acquired 2 Martin Logan Balanced Force 212 subwoofers, and placed them just inside (medial) to the Sound Lab ESL’s, and slightly closer to the front wall (about 24″ away). I set the low pass filter at 41 Hz, and just played some vinyl. The low end was much smoother, and more rounded, with a full sound, as opposed to the slightly thin sound that the SL ESL’s are otherwise predisposed to at the lower end. I didn’t bother with any real DEQ, etc yet or any HPF for the SL ESL’s. Presently, I’m content and impressed with the improved SQ of my system just by simply adding subwoofers.
                I did note that when I moved the subwoofers out into the room more, that the bass disappeared, as some interference was obviously occurring. Fortunately, the initial placement simply worked.
                One detractor: warped records, even if only slightly warped produce a huge low frequency signal that is unlistenable with the subwoofers.

                in reply to: Who Uses a subwoofer(s)? #1428
                drbond
                Participant

                  @mikko
                  I assume that the DEQX is in your pre-amplifier position. Does using the DEQX negate the use of a pre-amplifier? I would imagine that would impact the overall SQ, but allow more precise adjustment of the HPF to the SL speakers. What order HPF are you using with the DEQX? I was hoping to be able to use first order HPF to the SL speakers with a capacitor/resistor interconnect, but then use something like a fifth order LPF to the subwoofers, with the LPF crossover around 50-60 Hz.
                  Thanks.

                  in reply to: Who Uses a subwoofer(s)? #1417
                  drbond
                  Participant

                    @D10
                    I’ve been learning more about subwoofers, and it seems like I will be adding some soon, but the details are proving quite difficult to work out. I’m leaning towards passive subwoofers, with a separate amplifier receiving signal from the pre-amplifier. Interestingly, some people prefer a crossover at 100 hz, and others prefer 50 Hz with a very steep LPF. Then there’s the discussion about the HPF to the SL speakers also.

                    in reply to: Who Uses a subwoofer(s)? #1412
                    drbond
                    Participant

                      @D10
                      With two of those REL subwoofers, you must have a very large room!
                      I’ve never used subwoofers before: how exactly do you set up the crossover frequency? Is it a dial on the subwoofer itself? And I assume that you just connect them to the other pair of binding posts on the amplifiers.
                      Thanks.

                      in reply to: Sound Lab ESL and room treatments #1302
                      drbond
                      Participant

                        @Ralph
                        I’m glad to hear that dispersion worked for you; however, typically, from models in liquids, dispersion of sound waves is of minimal effectiveness, as compared to absorption. Supposedly, with ESL, you don’t need much in the way of sound wave absorption either above, below, or to the sides of the speakers. The main source of interference is going to be the wall behind the speakers (or a corner behind the speakers).

                        in reply to: Sound Lab ESL and room treatments #1293
                        drbond
                        Participant

                          @Dizzie

                          I’ve tried to upload a photo from an angle, so you can appreciate the acoustic panels, and corner bass traps:

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                          in reply to: Sound Lab ESL and room treatments #1292
                          drbond
                          Participant

                            @Ralph

                            In my experience, the “back wave” just interferes with the sound from the “front wave”, making the sound less precise, and more muddled.

                            in reply to: Sound Lab ESL and room treatments #1288
                            drbond
                            Participant

                              @Dizzie

                              The panels don’t really show up in photos, as they are the same color as the wall. All you see is the seams between the 24″ x 48″ panels, which do stick out 2″ from the wall, since they are 2″ thick. So from the side you can appreciate the presence of the panels, but not so much from the front. The corner bass traps are the only rather visible aspect of the treatment.

                              in reply to: Sound Lab ESL and room treatments #1287
                              drbond
                              Participant

                                @kilkil

                                I think that it is the side walls in front of the speakers that generally aren’t considered a problem for electrostatic speakers. I placed the acoustic absorption panels on the side walls behind the speakers, where there’s alot of reflective sound waves, as the speakers are usually angled inwards to the front, which means that they’re angled outwards (towards the side walls) to the back.

                                in reply to: Experience with amplifiers and Sound Lab speakers #1181
                                drbond
                                Participant

                                  @ACHiPo
                                  What are the relative strengths and weaknesses overall that you have found with the Benchmark AHBP amplifiers?
                                  Thanks.

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